LAYOUT: Tips & Techniques – Continuously Cycling PAN (Feedback Loop)

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Other/Unlisted Maker

There have been several questions in the MDP Ask a Question and MDP Facebook Group about feedback loops. MDP does not allow creating feedback using Super/Sub Controls. I have been developing layouts using the Button Off Sets to Default to get around this issue. I was intrigued by a recent Facebook question about a PAN that runs automatically. I assume the author wants the PAN to automatically cycle up and down.

One solution is provided in the attached layout. It includes a description of operation and Key Parameters such as Named Tick values essential for the operation.

I have several questions for the MDP experts:

a. Is there a one-button solution to making the function quit and go back to its default state.

b. Is there a way to pause and resume the cycling?

I welcome Feedback and Suggestions.

Don

Downloads: 238
2021-06-29-Continuous PAN.mididesigner
Downloads: 238

Images

Continuous PAN Layout

asked Jun 30, 2021 in Community Shares by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

I see that this is working, but I have no idea why, because it shouldn't. Going to have to look at this closer. There is no control to stop a continuous action, since there should not be a continuous running action. Very interesting.

commented Jun 30, 2021 by jkhiser (19,810 points)

The secret is MDP does not stop one from using Button Off property to create a quasi feedback. It also requires properly assigning named ticks in the knobs to trigger resets. MDP will appear to lockup if you are not careful. I have successfully used this approach in other layouts for other purposes, which I hope to publish shortly.

commented Jun 30, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

Copy. But once running, seems no way to stop. Even keeps running in design mode, which I have not seen before.

commented Jun 30, 2021 by jkhiser (19,810 points)

It will stop if you tap Start and then set to default. Start by itself pauses and then reverses. Followed by default stops it completely. Hope there is a one button approach. I haven't tried yet.

commented Jun 30, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

I see it running in Design Mode. Why?

commented Jun 30, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

Don't know why it took me so long to get this one, but this is a neat finding. Looks like a motion engine can be created with just four controls. And if you move the reset from the top control down one, then it seems to stop more predictably. Very nice work.

commented Jun 30, 2021 by jkhiser (19,810 points)

Want it to continue cycling and only stop when a button is pressed. To undersstand my thought pattern, disconnect the loop control from the Start. Tap the Start (or just the PAN ctrl) (reverse PAN is off), PAN ctrl goes on, starts the PAN Knob to go up. At 5, the reverse PAN goes on (named tick at 5 = 127), sets the PAN ctrl to default (off), starts the PAN Knob to reverse (5 to 1). At one it stops. This may be useful for some applications.

The application for my layout is essentially a continuous oscillation. The purpose of the loop ctrl is to trigger Start on to restart another loop when PAN gets down to one.

There is a timing issue between 5 ticks and 11 at twice the speed. The PAN Knob doesn't cycle back to 1 every cycle. Half the time it stops at 2 on the way down and starts back up again. Thus the pattern is
1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1... Apparently may need some refinement.

I have another thought of using a Metronome iPad app with SB Input Rules to create a PAN with a variable rate and min max values defined in MDP. I don't have time right now to pursue this.

commented Jul 1, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

4 Answers

Best answer

Enhanced Motion Engine Layout

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Other/Unlisted Maker

Enhanced Motion Engine adds Stop, Halt, and Stop buttons to jkhiser's layout. Future improvements and applications are likely possible.

Issue still remains that, unless stopped, it continues to run in Design Mode. I will raise this as a bug.

Downloads: 231
Enhanced Motion Engine
Downloads: 231

Images

Enhanced Motion Engine Layout

answered Jul 7, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)
selected Jul 10, 2021 by MIDI Designer Team (jkhiser)

Building on Dsabou’s discovery of how to create continuous motion, here is a four control motion engine. Once started, runs until stopped (even in design mode, which is interesting).

Downloads: 269
Motion Engine
Downloads: 269

Images

Screenshot 2021-06-30 at 18.06.25.png

answered Jul 1, 2021 by jkhiser (19,810 points)

Very good. I'm a parallel guy and you are series. Your approach eliminates some of the peculiarities I had.

Not for the Piece de Resistance. Relabel the Start/Stop as Start. Add a Momentary button called Stop. Make it Super to Start and Driver with Option Force not Stepper (I think?). I could make it stop and reset at any point in its cycle.

Can a toggle trigger the Start when On and trigger the Stop when it goes off to create a true start/stop button? What about a Pause? Any ideas?

commented Jul 1, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

Not thinking of anything for pause - the super control is either driving the sub to the min value or max value, don't see a way to interrupt that drive.

One other weird thing - in the first cycle in the layout above, a single press of Start / Stop will stop. After the first cycle, it takes a double press.

Re: triggering one button for on and one for off - you should be able to gang together a sequence that operate two buttons, one inverted, send ON only, on ON is for the Start, other ON is for the Stop.

commented Jul 1, 2021 by jkhiser (19,810 points)

Just beginning to read up. "Buttons Sets This to Default" and super-subs... there's no protection there against feedback loops. This is true with all the "other" relationships -- not sure what I was looking at, but I discovered this myself a few months back, too -- so I can imagine some exploits there.

I'm not initially alarmed at this setup/exploit and might put protections in to cut it off in Design Mode.

So... still researching and discussing. I'll circle back.

Thanks!
Dan

commented Jul 9, 2021 by MIDI Designer Team (Dan)

Possibly worth mentioning is (mididesigner.com/wiki/doku.php/manual:chapter-relationships) which is from midiDR.com/manual... which doesn't add much color except to specify when subs spin supers. Which is also something you can empirically figure out with a quick helloWorld (or verify since we wrote it out there).

commented Jul 9, 2021 by MIDI Designer Team (Dan)

Motion Engine is unstable.

MIDI Target Manufacturer(s): Other/Unlisted Maker

I recommend to stop pursuing this approach. I thought this may be a viable application using the Button On Sets to Default property for a Fader to create a PAN function. As it turns out it is not consistent and occasionally hangs up MDA. I use the Set to Default property in several layouts I have developed for controlling Hauptwerk Virtual Pipe Organ. This functionality is critical for my applications.

I plan on publishing my approaches soon. The image shows a partial layout where 3 digital manual selections (000 to 999) represent the 100's, 10's and one's digits that need to be output in that order although they can be entered in any order. After a user initiates the Faders to increase from min to max, the faders need to be reset to their default to prepare for the next cycle. A second application is an enhanced Registration Setter that automatically turns the Hauptwerk Setter function On and Off to simplify the procedure and prevent errors.

Images

Using Set to Default Reset

answered Jul 10, 2021 by dsabou2062 (3,570 points)

LAYOUT: Tips & Techniques – Continuously Cycling PAN (Feedback Loop)

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4 Answers

Enhanced Motion Engine Layout

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Motion Engine is unstable.

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